Ubuntu is Driving Me Away
I have used Ubuntu exclusively since Feisty and have tested each new release from alpha on. I have always been a big booster of Ubuntu and am active on several help forums. Yet, despite all of this history together I am thinking seriously of leaving Planet Ubuntu. Here’s why Ubuntu is driving me away.
If there is anything that I feel is more important than any individual distribution, it is software freedom. It is what brought me to Linux in the first place. Ubuntu has managed to straddle a line that allows me to use what I want, putting the user in full command. In other words, I have had to add things to break with FOSS ideals, the so-called restricted extras. Except that is now a lie and I am really struggling with it.
You see, each time I install Ubuntu I have to strip out some things that I do not agree with and that should not be the case. If Canonical is to be consistent, I should not have to a a hypocrite about some things and not others. It is this inconsistency that is causing me to re-think Ubuntu.
The bone of contention for me is Mono. I remove it. I don’t like it. I refuse to use it. It rubs me the wrong way. Anything that starts with Microsoft and goes via the sellout, Novell, cannot be good.
I know that Microsoft is opposed to the existence of Linux. That have said so, often and stridently. I know that Novell caved in and did not stand up for FOSS when they had the chance. They have since apologized, sort of, but the damage is done. Other companies did not follow suit, including Red Hat and Canonical. I respect them for this as much as I detest Novell for selling us down the drain.
Mono is not only a reminder of that sellout, but its legal status is far from settled. Novell and Microsoft can’t agree on who can distribute it. Microsoft takes the position that their agreement only covers Novell and not other distributions. Novell thinks otherwise. I do not care. Nothing that comes from Microsoft can be for our good and benefit. They are dedicated to our destruction and downfall.
Mono has infected Gnome. Ubuntu uses Gnome. I switched to Kubuntu and am happy with it. Now Moonlight is infecting Linux. Canonical is compromising its principles in the use of them and in my using their products I am forced to compromise my own values.
Yes, I can strip out Mono. In fact, doing so gives me a thrill. But should I have to? If Canonical is to be consistent they should have Mono as an option, as they do with the restricted extras. I should not have to feel sullied after installing Ubuntu.
I can continue to use Kubuntu, but I am not sure where Canonical is taking me with that. Will Mono infect KDE or will Moonlight become a future issue that I will have to deal with? At this point, I have no confidence that they will continue to take a principled decision in supporting FOSS. That is the question that I keep running over in my mind.
The question for me is where to go? Fedora is dumping Mono. Debian is too. Kudos for them.
I am not keen on Fedora as a distribution. I have used it since Core 2 and have issues with it. It is hard for me to like. RPM is not for me, either. I have used it since Mandrake 7 and it has always let me down. It is just a question of when it breaks. Besides Fedora and every other RPM distro does not have the package selection that comes with Debian-based distros.
My problem with Debian is more complex. It will never become popular due to its philosophy and approach which is exclusive rather than inclusive. I have frequented their forums and I don’t like their take it or leave it attitude. It hardly encourages newcomers. It is too fascist for my taste. No flexiblity at all.
I do not like the rolling release model, either. Rolling releases mean that when you install you are installing knowing that it is already stale on the installation medium. You will have to do massive updates, post installation. You could do a net installation, but that isn’t good for newbies. The installer alone is daunting for a newbie. That means that I will have to give up much of what I do in help forums. I use Ubuntu because it is popular not for myself, but for others, so that I can help people get a start in Linux.
My third issue with Debian is that I have long held the view that “stable is for sissies”. I love trying the newest and the latest of everything. I don’t mind troubleshooting problems and doing a full re-installation if necessary. However, I don’t much like the idea of starting from scratch and doing tons of updates each time. With Ubuntu I have a new disk each six months to work from. Updating is modest since I am working from a new system that is at worst six months old. I could change to Sid and that is an option, if I can get past my other objections. I have used Sidux and that is an option, as is SimplyMEPIS.
At this point I would like to have Canonical see the light and distance itself from Mono and Moonlight. I don’t see that happening and time is running out for me. I will stick with Ubuntu or Kubuntu through Karmic Koala, but I don’t see much hope as things stand. Right now Canonical and Novell are too close to each other philosophically for my comfort. Gnome is a lost cause, IMO.
There are many alternatives to Mono. There is absolutely no need to use it. There are alternatives to every Mono application that for the most part are better. There are alternative programming environments as well. Most applications are written without resorting to .Net or Mono. It is sheer laziness, IMO. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that if Mono did not exist then there would still be plenty of open source programmes. We have never needed short cuts before nor help from Microsoft.
I will never use Mono, just as I would never use Windows. Why use anything that is tainted when I can use something that is not? Mono and Novell are tainted and will be forever in my eyes. They are reminders that I don’t need on my computer that Microsoft is opposed to me and my way of thinking. They have never cared about me. They never will. I don’t want to entertain for a microsecond the idea that they do. If you do then you are only fooling yourself and Canonical is too if they do not see such an obvious threat to open source. Microsoft always acts out of self interest and nothing they do should be taken at face value.
Since you are Free software purist, what about using gNewSense? Does that have Mono in it?
ubuntucat
June 9, 2009
I have not tried gNewSense and I am not really a purist. I don’t really conform to any label per se.
I respect software freedom and the efforts to strengthen it. However, I draw the line at forcing one’s value on another. Which is where I differ with RMS and the Debian folks. It is a dictatorship and however benevolent I cannot accept that.
linuxcanuck
June 10, 2009
Ummm .. but aren’t you trying to force YOUR values on everyone else by wanting Mono out of Ubuntu?
Don’t want it, give gNewSense a shot … none of the M$/Novell/Mono junk in there.
Crazy Henaway
June 10, 2009
A few GNOME apps use Mono – uninstalling mono will uninstall them, too, and that’s the extent of the “damage”. I’m not sure how you can claim that Mono has “infected” GNOME.
“Will Mono infect KDE”
You might be interested to see this:
http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdebindings/csharp/
I guess you’ll be off to Xubuntu, now?
anon
June 9, 2009
try archlinux, start with the basic and slowly add what you want.
scott
June 9, 2009
I agree with you, and I don’t expect KDE to use Mono apps since Mono is mostly pushed by Miguel de Icaza of the GNOME foundation. Expect a lot of push back though, as Mono is a hot topic.
I left the *buntu fold for different reasons, mostly because I dislike GNOME, their KDE is horrible, and the *buntu bugs are never fixed (I get regular emails asking that I upgrade to the newest release and try an app again — thats not a bug fix). Debian was a great change and I’ve never felt unwelcome.
Sidux is just Debian Sid with a few extra packages; I have a few systems of both (Sid and Sidux) and I cannot really tell the difference between them, as far as functionality goes.
I think Debian Sid with KDE4 is where it is at, but I would love a newer release and I would like a distro that takes Sid and adds great software and options for the installation of non-Free software if the user wants it.
Because Sid is such a moving target, creating a live/install CD for this is very difficult, apparently.
lefty.crupps
June 9, 2009
Get off your high horse, stop philosophizing and get some actual work done accomplished. If mono is installed either ignore it and work or uninstall it and work. No hand wringing or loosing sleep necessary.
nicsmr
June 9, 2009
leave ubuntu only because of mono? this is not a solid reason, man!
seenxu
June 9, 2009
Where to go? To Slackware: simple, stable, fast, newest and the latest software. No Mono, no infection.
gabim
June 9, 2009
i agree with your opinions on mono; i’ve never been a big fan of mono and its confused me why open source linux users would want to copy a strictly microsoft language.
i left ubuntu because it tried to do too much for me, and i wanted to gain a little more control over my system. i did a bit of distro hopping and have now settled on arch linux, and have been very happy with it.
arch has a rolling release system, and there tend to be less linux newbs on the forums, but you may still want to check it out. theres a review of arch on my blog
chi42
June 9, 2009
“stable is for sissies”
Well Ubuntu uses Debain’s unstable sources if I recall correctly so I’m not sure this is a fair charge.
Debian is certainly the spartan group of Linux but their policies and stances have helped defined free software (whether you agree with it or not). They really are a user-community anymore which is sad because I remember back in the day when they actually wanted you to try the distro. They are a rock solid group of developers though that contribute to Linux about as much as anybody (the only exception probably being Red hat).
If you don’t want rpm that takes Mandriva, Opensuse, Fedora… out. If you don’t want Ubuntu that takes Linux Mint out. Arch is a good distro but you have to be somewhat familiar with the command line. Gentoo is great if you got a week to set it up right. Not sure what else there is out there XD.
Dirk Gently
June 9, 2009
Thanks for the suggestions about Sid (lefty.crupps) and Arch (Dirk Gently). I hope that Canonical comes to its senses though and establishes some consistency. It is a long shot but I still have hope. In the meantime, I will be shopping around once again. I have though about Arch, LFS and Gentoo, but this would mean a big departure from my normal way of operating. I don’t mind the commandline, but I don’t have the time to devote to it.
linuxcanuck
June 10, 2009
You could install Arch via Chakra. They have an alpha install but it is a very good install and they are eager to help. They have other releases they are doing now as well.
John
June 10, 2009
I agree with you that I wish that Mr. Shuttleworth would soon see the light and at least not include mono and mono apps in the default Ubuntu install (although that does not appear likely since Banshee appears to be on the way in with Karmic.)
Suprisingly, yes gNuisense (sic) does indeed include mono and mono apps in their default install (although I do recall reading that RMS does not particularly like mono.)
However, please reconsider abandoning Ubuntu as it is our greatest hope of winning more new users (and frankly new users could care less about the mono controversy.)
stlouisubntu
June 9, 2009
Typical for a Torontonian to take offence at a little reality shot…
Well I don’t agree. If it installs by itself uninstall it OR don’t use it. No need to make a big deal of it.
nicsmr
June 9, 2009
Mistake number one. Not a Torontonian. I live an hour away in quiet Guelph.
Mistake number two. It is not just me. There is a great buzz about Mono all across the net and at least two distributions are stripping it out. My call is for consistency. You can’t leave out restricted drivers and codecs under the guise of protecting FOSS and then leave in Mono whose license is up in the air at best and a sellout at worst.
Mistake number three. I said that I CAN take it out. I should not HAVE to. Ubuntu prides itself as being for everybody. I am part of everybody. If they wish to be inclusive then they should not leave some users feeling contaminated with Microsoft and Novell’s idea of what is good for open source/ free software as the de facto standard.
linuxcanuck
June 10, 2009
There is some saying, “If you try to be everything to everyone, you’ll be nothing to no one.”
I understand it’s a matter of degrees, but it does strike me as odd that you don’t hold to RMS’ thinking yet have an issue with Mono. If we didn’t have RMS et al as an anchor at one end of the spectrum, I feel like FOSS would be overrun by commercial interests and would lose its identity.
Having said that, I wholeheartedly agree with you concerning Mono’s muddied licensing, tainted history, and equivocating sources. Like nailing Jello to the wall, people cannot get a straight answer on Mono and I still feel like it’s a trojan horse, a ticking legal time bomb just waiting for the right amount of infringing “IP” to leak into FOSS before it detonates. With MS trying to stipulate FOSS can use some of its “IP” **as long as it’s for personal use**, that kind of restriction is not compatible with open/free licensing.
Out of genuine curiosity, is there any part of the Gnome core that is developed in Mono/C#?
TK
June 10, 2009
” said that I CAN take it out. I should not HAVE to. Ubuntu prides itself as being for everybody. I am part of everybody. If they wish to be inclusive then they should not leave some users feeling contaminated with Microsoft and Novell’s idea of what is good for open source/ free software as the de facto standard.”
I agree completely on that.
Besides, by using Ubuntu that pushes Mono and dotnet support, I would give a signal that “hey, this s**t is ok by me”, even if I uninstall everything that reeks of Mono and MSFT within the first five minutes…
If Ubuntu keeps Mono, they won’t keep me, it’s quite simple
I want to stay clean of MSFT, that’s why I use GNU/Linux in the first place.
Imp
June 11, 2009
There is only one answer to all of this. Miguel de Icaza, Novell and Microsoft have to once and for all make an unequivocal, unrevocable, not time limited statement and provide an iron clad license. There can be nothing less.
Sam Varghese set out to get a licence and could not find anyone to give him one. This is where trust fails.
http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13604
Debian Squeeze/SID with Gnome or KDE does not use any mono by default, although it is available in the repositories. Gnote is available for install.
I have Jaunty on one box and SID on another and once setup it is hard to tell the difference. It is hard to recommend SID for day to day use if your computer is used for anything important, it is too easily broken by updates, but then “stable is for sissies”.
GregE
June 10, 2009
I use Debian Sid at work and at home across multiple desktops, and I update them daily without issues.
lefty.crupps
June 10, 2009
I also dislike mono very much.
With Archlinux I was able to remove mono within some minutes.
jens
June 10, 2009
Well …
I don’t like when some one says “I don’t like”.
Linux is freedom of choice. You prefer something over something else? Just use it.
You can’t blame Cannonical, Red Hat, Novel or any other company for doing things they think they should.Worst case, You just choose something that fits you better. Best case, build your own distro.
As for me, i’m familiar with Ubuntu since 4.10. It was easyfied Debian. So I moved to it from Debian(testing) (changing repos wasn’t to hard). Then it started to get uglier with each release. I dumped it at 2005 for Gentoo. I do recommend newbies to start with Ubuntu since this way they can keep working without having to spend to much time learning new staff.
My parents and other “computer illiterate” members of family and some friends use Ubuntu. My aging laptop running 9.10. It is easy for me to manage it and answer questions. Mostly it just works. But if you know what is Mono, .NET FOSS and other curses, you can’t use it. It’s to limiting. From my experience, Gentoo providing the best platform for highly customizable OS. It is faster than any binary distro. It allows you at least few versions of the same app to install from the main repo. and of course there is “overlays” that is much like Ubuntu’s PPA. It is easier to get in or out any feature from the app or whole system. Not to mention compile your own app. Take kernel as example. I can’t understand Ubuntu’s kernels. They include to much of the stuff i’m never gonna need, but on the other side missing features that “must to have”. FWFR i have to install this huge amount of *-dev just to compile a kernel (not to mention it will probably brake the system)?
I remember the frustration i went through when i wanted Amarok to support FLAC in Ubuntu (it was long time ago). In Gentoo it is pleasure to make your own, meeting your unique needs Desktop/Server OS.
Back to the topic.
If you just a user that does not care what he using as long as it do what it should. Use Ubuntu/OpenSUSE/Fedora buy a Mac or whatever but don’t post things like this. It just makes me sick when people like you bringing their cries from MS world. People spend great effort to make this thing. Even though you have contributed something to community (help forums) it does not give you rights to complain. You can make suggestions. Not complains.
And may be you should rethink your perception of Linux.
“Linux is Not Windows” will help to improve it.
Sincerely
n0ns
June 10, 2009
+1.
I completely agree. I don’t like Mono or what it represents. It should be in Multiverse and not Main.
Simply change one word of a famous Steve Balmer quote to get how I feel about it:
“Mono is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches.”
lordalan
June 11, 2009
I’m not a Microsoft fan and they are definitely only interested in their own profits and survival, but to say “They are dedicated to our destruction and downfall.” is plain and simple FUD. You are stooping to their level when you make such false statements. I’m a Linux lover and I wanted to discount your article so how do you expect those Windows users who are considering Linux to feel?
Linux lover
June 10, 2009
They are opposed to Linux on principle and have had many active FUD campaigns of their own. History is littered with the corpses of companies that Microsoft have taken down by legal means or otherwise. So I don’t think that this is an overstatement. They would destroy Linux if they could or anything else that stands in their path and according to Ballmer, Linux is in the way and after piracy is their biggest threat.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
What about Moonlight ? has that been included or installed by default ?
Stefano F. (tacone)
June 10, 2009
If you want to stick with Ubuntu but are worried about Micro$oft’s intrusion, go with Xubuntu. With Xfce you have the Ubuntu you know and love, and don’t have to worry about intrustion from Novell or Micro$oft. Plus keeping with one pure desktop environment is boring, I encorporate elements of Gnome and KDE along with Xfce to create a custom DE.
Justin
June 10, 2009
I have less problems with this since I dont use any of the Bubuntus although I did use Xubuntu on an old thinkpad.
Kubuntu is still the red headed stepchild at Canonical and much prefer PCLinuxOS for 3.5 and Mandriva2009 for KDE4.2.
Gnome just looks like doodoo with an old WIn95 interface and not a big fan of the GTK ‘look’. And its not just the wannabee Mac look with the taskbar. I prefer apps that are native to KDE like Digikam, Gvenview, Kopete.
So I cant say that I would change desktops because of mono but I would have followed your stance had I been a Gnome user.
I find it ironic that Icaza started Gnome because he thought that the then non-free Qt toolkit wasnt pure enough and he is now on the other side of the same battle ( except we have a full decade of Linux attacks from Microsoft.)
Im not going too rehash the why mono is bad since Glyn Moody, the SFLC and others have done a great job (as well as explaining why Mono is not the same as Samba) but as a Red Hat user and as a Non-Compensated Individual Hobbyist Developer, I feel directly affected by the Novell deal.
The extortion deal they signed does NOT protect all Linux users and developers just Novell ones. (Ballmer mentions on a Utube vid that Red Hat users owe them money while Novell ones are legit).
Sam Varghese has shown that getting a license is as easy as catching a unicorn.
BTW, even though I am a free software developer, I have no problems with non-free on my Gentoo or Mandriva desktops; Skype and Opera (FF sucks on Linux compared to Win) are my two most used apps.
I dont have a problem if you want to add mono to the same repos but I do NOT understand why something so contentious has to be deeply engrained in the desktop making it more and more hard to remove if necessary. Especially since it brings nothing new or better than what we are using.
Gnome’s leader is the mono head and a Novell VP and there seems to be a Colonel Klink thing going on with the Canonical people “I see nothing, I hear nothing.” where people like Jono Bacon and the rest dont even want to talk about this problem and the legitimate views such as the one you expounded on.
By not addressing it head on and listening to user and developer, this wont go away no matter how much they hope it will but instead it will fester.
I’m sure Bacon’s community building book has a chapter on listening to the community’s worries. Maybe he should reread it.
Again going back to the origins of Gnome, was there such an atitude on KDE forums and mailing lists when Icaza started his desktop project? I presume there was but it still a little unsettling that in an ‘open’ community certain things cant be discussed as if they are religious canon.
Are we serving free software by refusing debate or are we just helping the Novell agenda which seems to benefit Microsoft and its plans? We have a great open platform, many excellent languages to use that are as good and better than Mono and chasing Windows .NET developers should not be a priority or even a necessity as we have done extremely well so far (with the last 2-3 years marking a huge leap for the Linux desktops).
So Ubuntu folks can keep their heads in the sand and refuse to any talk on the topic but it wont make it disappear.
Nicsmr is typical of the anti mono camp: start by name calling (for americans: Being called a Torontonian in Canada’s is like being called a douche in the US) and then totally avoid the subject by giving a non solution which doenst address the main points. Intectually weak as always.
Rene Levesque-Caline
June 10, 2009
The core of Mono, which is what Linux apps use, is open source. Microsoft can do nothing about it.
Additional parts of Mono, like WinForms compatibility or ASP support, are up for legal debate, but this has no affect on the Mono-based apps that ship with Ubuntu.
jim
June 10, 2009
Wikipedia entry, not that it is gospel but I have read this same statement elsewhere many times: “According to Mono project leader Miguel de Icaza, this agreement extends to Mono but only for Novell developers and customers. It was criticized by some members of the free software community because it violates the principles of giving equal rights to all users of a particular program.”
This is from the Ubuntu.com archives in 2007: “I am sad to report that it has come to my attention in the wake of the
Novell-Microsoft agreement that Mono is likely patent encumbered and thus non-free for Ubuntu purposes.”
This is an old issue that won’t go away until it is cleared up by Microsoft and they do not have an interest in helping us or in clearing it up. They want to cause as much disruption as possible.
This blog is from 2004: “Why Mono is Currently An-Unacceptable Risk” (http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono)
and the Miguel de Icaza statement in Wikipedia is from 2006 and we are still arguing. Enough said. What Microsoft gives they can take away at any time and they will do it when we least expect it or use it to force concessions like they did from Novell. Mono gives them a tool and we do not have to use it. There are alternatives. This is just plain stupid to play into their hands when we don’t need to.
The truth is nobody knows the status for Mono until Microsoft speaks up or acts by threatening us as they are prone to do.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
Your comment seems overly strident, but I must admit I unsubscribed from PlanetPython for related reasons: too many darn postings about IronPython. I’m glad the Windows people a version of Python they like, but it isn’t Python and isn’t Free. But my concern isn’t really idealogical, more of a “what’s this got to do with me?”
Joseph Reagle
June 10, 2009
first of all, this is a great argument against those who say that there should only be one distro. Second, I don’t see what the big deal is. If enough people don’t like it – make an ubuntu spin-off without mono. If everyone switches to that, then Canonical will know that most people want that. But if only 5% of their users (I just picked that number out of the air) don’t want mono – why should 95% be without it?
I guess another constructive thing to do would be to see what programs you would miss without Mono. Fspot, Beagle, Tomboy, and I think there’s one more big one. So Tomboy has Gnote and Beagle has Tracker. What Gnome/GTK+ program is as good as Fspot?
Finally, you mentioned using Mono as a sign of lazy programming. There is a programmer population out there (not me, I hate this programming lineage) who like C#. Although it was created by MS as a reaction to Java, C# is a standardized language and MS does not own it any more than AT&T owns C. Now, MS owns .net. So maybe what we need is a replacement for Mono that is 100% free of MS tech. Maybe…
But what could really happen? If MS says, “Oh, you violated my patents” it would be to Canonical, not to you. And, I presume, a judge would determine that MS’s licensing was not clear so as long as Canonical removes it – everything’s A-OK.
I subscribed to the comments because I’m curious where this will go.
Eric Mesa
June 10, 2009
I use debian testing and upgrade fairly often so there’s usually not very many packages that get upgraded. The network install isn’t much harder than an ordinary install; if you try it I’m sure you’ll be able to do it.
I don’t like mono either and see it as an unnecessary risk to free software. I installed ubuntu on my brothers machine and saw that they put mono on it. I would rather that they didn’t put mono dependant packages on the installation. I would rather add those packages manually if I want them but I guess ubuntu is designed for the beginners and probably most of them don’t care about the mono issue.
I think the solution to the mono issue is to rewrite all the mono dependent software in other languages (C/C++). That is what we are starting to see happen.
Jeff
June 10, 2009
It seems to me that Meguiel de Azca comes from a very corporate microsofty background, and him starting Mono was his way of trying to work linux into the whole .net rush. His intentions were noble.. although his execution of those intentions is incredibly poor. I really liked the idea of dotgnu, but like so many interesting GNU projects (i.e., hurd) all we get is an interesting start, and then nothing.
Capheind
June 10, 2009
This is, plain and simple, a religious war. Mono is GPL compliant (using GPL v2, LGPL v2 adn MIT X11 as it’s license vehicles), has never been challenged and is not associated with Microsoft and only indirectly to Novell by virtue of Miguel being employed by Novell.
No one forces you to use Mono.
You can install Ubuntu w/o Mono if you wish. Articles like this do nothing to help FOSS and only give credibility to Microsoft by virtue of using the same crappy tactics against FOSS.
Please. Stop spreading FUD. If you don’t like something just uninstall it, but please stop behaving like Microsoft by spreading useless FUD about a project you simply don’t care to support.
JP
June 10, 2009
I did NOT create the Ubuntu philosophy. It prides itself on being inclusive. Jono Bacon is making a living out of developing community. What sort of community is it that tries to deny people a voice as is now happening with Mono and Moonlight is still to become an issue? Novell has become a pariah a pariah and Canonical has not made the same agreement, but by following Miguel de Icaza’s lead they threaten to destroy what they have built.
Yes, I could go quietly and say nothing. But I am part of the community and have worked hard to integrate others into it and feel that I have earned the right to speak up. I respect what Canonical has achieved and hate to see it tossed away without any healthy discussion. By calling it FUD you are ignoring the fact that this agreement is clouded in secrecy and there are opposing views.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
Why not switch to Xubuntu? Instead of removing stuff you don’t like, you can add the things that you do. Or is it infested with Mono/Moonlight too?
Quin
June 10, 2009
I see people complain all the time about RPM based distros, but my experience has been the complete opposite. For me, it has been the apt and deb based distros that have broken during updates. And the worst thing I find is how much of a resource pig the package update tool in Ubuntu is. When I see that there are updates to be done, I know that I won’t be doing anything useful on the machine while the update is in progress because the package update tool is going to pound the disk and my system is going to crawl until it is done. This is in complete contrast to my Fedora 10 system, which just last night allowed me to install over 50 updates while watching a movie without impacting the performance of the machine enough to cause the video to hiccup. The only time I have ever had any type of problems with updates on my RPM based systems were when I added conflicting external repositories and since the creation of RPMFusion, I no longer have this issue.
I have been using Linux since before Slackware even existed, seeing the birth of Debian, RedHat, SuSE and the rest. Every distro has strengths and weaknesses and every single one has had bad releases. Personally, I find myself always coming back to Fedora. For me, it has the right amount of user friendly features and like an old friend, I can live with the quirks. As for their decision to move away from Mono, I applaud them and I am looking forward to upgrading my Fedora 10 systems to Fedora 11 in the next week.
I just don’t see the point of the religious infighting among the distros, package managers and desktops. It is just as stupid to me as the vi versus emacs flamewars of yesterday or the Perl versus Python fights I used to see when I worked at DejaNews. If you find something you don’t like in a distro or desktop, try a different one or better yet, talk to the people who make it and POLITELY discuss how you think it could be made better.
txtechdog
June 10, 2009
I have used RPM for ten years. I can break OpenSUSE with just a few updates. Mandrake takes a bit more time, but it breaks down, too. It just does not fit my habits which are to install lots of applications with every possible desktop installed. Believe me, I have tried to like RPM. I began with Mandrake. The best of the lot is PCLOS, but it has problems of its own, the chief of which is slow development and delays.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
lefty: saying “Mono is mostly pushed by Miguel de Icaza of the GNOME foundation” gives a misleading impression. The GNOME foundation has nothing directly to do with GNOME development, and Miguel does not work directly on GNOME any more. He has no current leadership role within GNOME and few if any GNOME hackers agree with him on how awesome Mono, Moonlight etc are. Mono has never been required for any core GNOME component, only peripheral and entirely optional apps like Tomboy and F-Spot. And there’s currently a move to rewrite Tomboy in C++ (gnote).
Adam Williamson
June 10, 2009
This is good news. The best I have heard in awhile. I respect GNOME and want it to thrive. I think that the various projects keep driving the others to new heights and a strong GNOME means a strong KDE, XFCE, etc.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
Did you tell Canonical That you don’t like to have software that depends on Mono? I don’t like Mono either.
rich
June 10, 2009
I am telling them now. My blog has been highlighted in their weekly newsletter, so I know that they read it.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
What about Gobuntu, it is a GNU/Linux operating system, derived from Ubuntu, that endeavors to adhere to the Free Software Foundation’s four freedoms and intends to provide a base for other free software platforms to build upon with minimal modification required. When you Boot the recent Ubuntu CD, press F6 and you’ll have the option to install a “Free software only” version.
Ken
June 10, 2009
Oh boy – another hysterical rant about “contamination”.
Just goes to show what can happen when you’re blinded by ideology.
Brian
June 10, 2009
I used that word intentionally. I am glad you picked up on it. I see it as a contagion because it came in through a backdoor agreement and has won mainstream success without any discussion that would have happened if we had been approached directly by Microsoft. I don’t like anything which is clothed in secrecy and is not spelled out clearly.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
Have you tried Slackware? Also FreeBSD has proven itself as a really wonderful FOSS community haven’t they? Tried them? What’s your take on them – interested to hear.
Sadiq
June 10, 2009
“However, I draw the line at forcing one’s value on another.”
Hmmm. An interesting statement, coming from someone enamoured of the GPL.
*All* linux distros are gong to give you this calamity because users expect A and B to just work, so, unless they want to be marginalized the various and sundry distros are going to have to include many apps you will find distasteful.
If you find the forcing of values on others so odious you are sentenced by your own ethics to use a *BSD: All the sharing implied by the GPL AND ALSO the freedom not to share at all.
Seriously (wait, I was serious), the situation you deplore is only going to get worse. A population so bored by the theft of music and movies and software (childish defenses notwithstanding) is just not going to care about their OS getting into bed with some truly nasty corporations. They just don’t care. And they don’t care how you feel about it either. They will be hoist by their own petard, but are too short-sighted to see it coming.
You need to switch to a BSD. Besides, there, a lot of the ugly proprietary software you abhor won’t work properly, saving you from your own hypocrisy. Try BSD, and welcome.
lurker
June 10, 2009
[...] Ubuntu is Driving Me Away I have used Ubuntu exclusively since Feisty and have tested each new release from alpha on. I have always been a big [...] [...]
Top Posts « WordPress.com
June 10, 2009
Why not just use something like OpenGEU?
rick
June 10, 2009
I like OpenGEU very much. I may give it a try once again. I am hoping NOT to have to switch, but OpenGEU is a worthy distribution.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
“Will Mono infect KDE”
Quite unlikely. The reason why people like developing applications with Mono is the effectiveness of Mono compared to C/GTK+ or even C++/GTKmm. Whereas for KDE, they already have efficient and superior toolkit : C++ and Qt. And I think there is a policy that core KDE components should always be C++.
Even though Qt/KDE have C# binding (Qyoto/Kimono), but until now I don’t see many applicatoins being developed using it (again it might be because C++/Qt is already superior combination, and using Mono will just slow down everything)
fred
June 11, 2009
This is something only ideologists and paranoiacs worry about.
hank
June 11, 2009
.NET is the ONLY system that combines all of the following
- sane and universal programming language
- versatile set o libraries
- high speed of execution
- same skills for client and server
Linux has nothing getting close.
So, for Linux the options are:
1. Invent something better. Proven inability to do that.
2. Fade into oblivion.
3. Use .NET.
If Mark thinks big, then the only way for Linux to win is to use Mono and, if/when MS bites, win the fight over it and, ideally, over software patents in general.
Compare to Ubuntu’s love of GNOME. KDE is better, Qt license is OK, but when Linux wins big time Qt may become a problem.
Andrey
June 11, 2009
You sound knowledgeable. I am told that .NET applications must still be recompiled for Linux because they do not translate fully. I am not a programmer so recompiled may be the wrong word. In any case, this is not the panacea that it is made out to be.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
First of all, I’m going to try to compare a Framework to a language. C# is not .NET. Take the following contribution with that in mind.
Vala is a C#/Java-like language for Gnome. It has bindings to basically every C library in existence on Linux. The valac compiler produces either C code or a binary. Let’s see how that stacks up:
- sane and universal programming language: CHECK. If you don’t like C#/Java-style languages, the same compiler also recognizes the Python-like Genie. You can even use both languages in the same project.
- versatile set o libraries: CHECK since adding bindings is dead-simple.
- high speed of execution: Faster than JIT since it compiles into native binaries
- same skills for client and server: CHECK since it all precompiles into C. If you’re talking about ASP.NET, well then … those aren’t the same skills as writing C# code, are they?
Given that run-down, I think the devs HAVE invented something better.
If Mark thinks big, the only way for Linux to win is to use Vala and Genie wherever possible, porting GTK# and Python applications to it.
BTW, the QT license is LGPL, which allows you to link to binaries of any license, commercial or otherwise. Why would that be a problem?
Daeng Bo
June 12, 2009
Never heard about Vala and Genie before (!). So, yours is the most valuable comment in the thread (so far?). At first look, both are VERY promising. I have not figured out yet if types are nullified Java style in generics, but assume they are not. It will be very interesting to see Vala/Genie impact on Gnome 2.29.
My uneducated very preliminary guess is that it is logical “to use Vala and Genie wherever possible, porting GTK# and Python applications to it”. This should allow to ignore Mono.
Minor details for the sake of completeness:
“First of all, I’m going to try to compare a Framework to a language. C# is not .NET.” From the user perspective, C# IS .NET and Vala/Genie IS GNOME. I would agree if you said you compared a framework to another framework. .NET is miles ahead now, but I am not sure we actually need all the features.
“High speed of execution: Faster than JIT since it compiles into native binaries”. .NET can be compiled to native on assembly installation so the JIT compiler is not used. And JIT compile in .NET affects only start-up time.
“If you’re talking about ASP.NET, well then … those aren’t the same skills as writing C# code, are they?” If you do not work alone, they are. Separation of Designer and Developer roles was one of the proclaimed goals of .NET and MS has not failed it.
“BTW, the QT license is LGPL, which allows you to link to binaries of any license, commercial or otherwise. Why would that be a problem?” The most evident: how many incompatible Qt runtimes from those who opted for the commercial license do you plan to enjoy? Will you be happy when Qt is sold and resold like MySQL? When Linux gains 30% of the desktop, expect wonders.
Andrey
June 12, 2009
Andrey,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I just want to clear something up. Since Trolltech was purchased, there are no longer two versions of QT. There used to be a Pro and a GPL version. Now there’s just the LGPLed one, and you can use it for whatever you like without having to buy a license.
I like Vala immensely. A lot of smaller projects have forks that are being re-written in Vala. Genie is less mature but developing rapidly due to everyone’s (!) love for Python. I feel they both have a great future on the Linux desktop, whether it ever hits 30% or not.
Daeng Bo
June 12, 2009
[...] a lot of GNU/Linux users have Mono installed, which thus gives it legitimacy. Yesterday we found an example of a person who may have to leave Ubuntu because of Mono. GNOME is negatively affected too. I know that [...]
Rally to Put More Mono in Ubuntu Backfires, Users Left Concerned by Mono | Boycott Novell
June 11, 2009
How about trying out Fedora 11? Things have changed quite a bit and you will be supporting a distribution in line with your personal choices
neo
June 11, 2009
Linuxcanuck.
You’re up in arms about Mono, but you’re not upset about Ubuntu redistributing firmware without the rights to do so? At least the license for Mono is Free (whether there are patent bombs or not). The firmware bits Ubuntu packages are 100% non-re-distributable.
I use Ubu some places and Debian some places (make that anything you want). Debian isn’t “purist” or anything (though there are some elements)
Arch generally breaks ten seconds after I install it. Fedora’s nice and Free, and RPM isn’t so bad now that Yum is available. A lot of the innovation in distros actually comes out of Fedora.
Daeng Bo
June 11, 2009
Fedora is an option that I am seriously considering. The biggest problem is the lack of packages. Some things that I use just aren’t available in RPM.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
I have to agree – many apps are being packaged as .deb with Ubuntu’s popularity. There was some point in the past you could find an RPM package for just about any project in Sourceforge and others. Now, .deb packages have overtaken RPM for the most part.
There are some apps that I really must use the latest version without digging into SVN and compiling their nightly build. For those few apps, most of them have .deb packages and few have RPM. Perhaps Fedora 11 will increase user base again and we’ll start seeing RPM packages all over the place again.
TK
June 11, 2009
What packages are missing exactly? All the free and open source stuff is usually in the Fedora repositories. Rest of it at http://rpmfusion.org
neo
June 11, 2009
The one that immediately comes to mind is the VERY latest mixxx. I’m a hobby dj and use a Hercules dj console. For Linux, mixxx is a pretty good dj application that works very well with the dj console, but many of the fixes and improved beat algorithms come only with the very latest version. Honestly, I don’t know how closely RPM Fusion follows their application, but Ubuntu’s various repositories are one or two versions behind.
Going to the mixxx download site, they only have the source code and a .deb package for Ubuntu:
http://mixxx.org/download.php
What I have also noticed is how some projects will have someone build packages from some of the latest builds. Of course, many repositories don’t or can’t keep up with individual projects and their latest builds, so the repositories sometimes aren’t useful if there are bug fixes and improvements needed. In these particular cases, you have to go directly to the project site and download. In increasing number, their builds are packaged in .deb but not RPM.
I’m sorry I can’t give you more examples other than mixxx at this point.
TK
June 11, 2009
# yum info mixxx
Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, presto, refresh-packagekit
Available Packages
Name : mixxx
Arch : i586
Version : 1.6.1
Release : 2.fc11
Size : 5.6 M
Repo : rpmfusion-free
Summary : Mixxx is open source software for DJ’ing
URL : http://www.mixxx.org
License : GPLv2+
What else?
neo
June 11, 2009
It should be the mixxx+herc package. From the looks of it, it doesn’t have the herc plugin but it doesn’t say. The mixxx download site does appear to have the Hercules midi drivers for Fedora, so that’s good.
I may now have to give Fedora 11 a try to see if it works well for the dj’ing.
TK
June 11, 2009
If you’re going to do something, don’t waste your time talking about it. If you don’t like something, just uninstall it! That’s the beauty of Linux. There is not a single operating system (Linux distributions or otherwise) that I don’t have some issue with. Realistically I realize that most can be fixed by removing what I don’t want and adding what I do want.
I appreciate your issues about Mono (and I happen to agree with them). Canonical will act when they see fit, perhaps you should be discussing this with them.
Yes, I suppose Ubuntu is for everyone. Again, face reality – You cannot please all of the people (that’s “everyone”) all of the time. That’s a fact of life, get over it!
Again, if you don’t like mono – remove it. If you don’t want to have to remove it, then get another OS!
Bottom line, get a grip! If you don’t like having to remove packages from Ubuntu, then move on and stop crying about it. Remember, nobody in this world cares more about your problems than you.
Rangerama
June 11, 2009
If I leave Ubuntu or Canonical OSes altogether, it will be a sad thing for me. I really like what they have tried to do and have been a good sport and a strong advocate. I am speaking up because I want to not just leave without explaining why. Change may or may not come, but if I do not add my voice then I will be letting my side down. Mono and Moonlight will become mainstream, if we just play possum. Once they do Microsoft will have achieved something that they never could get on their own.
Microsoft dicks with standards. They do this to keep everybody off balance and to call the shots. They did it with web standards and they are doing it with ODF now. It is what they do. Give them a standard and they will break it, get you following their lead and then switch so that they have their hooks in you. Don’t believe me, ask Opera how Microsoft has continually frustrated them. You may think that is in our best interest just because Mono is convenient, but I don’t. I think that we are being penny wise and pound foolish to give Microsoft a beach head from which to work their nastiness.
People who say get a grip do not see the web that is being spun around them. It is better to have your eyes open and expect the worst than to go into it and get a horrible surprise later. Microsoft has done nothing to convince me that they have changed their spots. People who play with fire get burned. The use of metaphors is intentional.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
For people who think that I am making a big deal out of nothing. Ubuntu fancies itself as being a distribution for everyone. If it was not for this ethic then I would not have a leg to stand on. If they are trying to please everyone, then they should NOT include Mono or Moonlight by default because it is an issue with not just me.
Right now, I am stripping out Mono, but feel that I should not have to feel unclean in doing so. Mono should be treated like the restricted extras, IMO, and installed on demand by those who do not care about license issues.
I don’t understand why Linux users get so defensive about Mono. It is a foreign entity that came into Linux through a backdoor agreement between Microsoft and Novell that is clouded in secrecy to this day and which has done little to improve Novell’s bottom line, but has hurt its reputation immensely in the open source community. By their own admission this was probably a mistake.
I am left with a feeling of mistrust for Novell that will never disappear and you know how I feel about Microsoft whose dirty deeds are legendary and it has never ceased despite numerous fines. You can’t believe anything they say because they have an end game which is to win at all costs and destroy any competition. Like it or not we are competition and they will never be happy with giving us even a small piece of the pie.
Miguel de Icaza has to say what he says. Novell has to stand by its agreement for legal reasons and give assurances to assure its customers. That does not mean that we have to gullible in believing everything we are being told. Don’t you recognize when you are being spun?
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
I’m a .NET developer with a decent interest in Ubuntu and being able to write applications using the language I am already feeling comfortable in. Having Mono in the default Ubuntu install will significantly enlarge my potential userbase. That’s what people mean when they say you can’t please everybody – our wishes are incompatible.
I respect your opinion on Microsoft but that doesn’t take away the fact that C# is a beautiful (and standardized!) language. Also, I believe that should Microsoft ever do what you seem to fear, it will have a very negative impact on them. You don’t just take on half the world. Remember SCO?
Anonymous
June 13, 2009
But Mono is under an open source licence.
And those possible software patents you speak of are only valid in the US, so why should the rest of the world suffer?
BTW are there (or were there) any big software patents lawsuits?
saynotomono
June 11, 2009
Haha, gotta love the related articles list under this post (esp. that last one)
saynotomono
June 11, 2009
I mostly agree with you, except for 2 points: 1. stable is not “for sissies”; and 2. “take it or leave it” is not dictatorship. Ad 1: one of the main reasons (besides philosophical ones which were decisive) for me for leaving the Windows world was precisely the alleged “stability” of GNU/linux. Not all of us have their PC’s only for fiddling around, you see. As much as I enjoy delving into my OS and playing with it, I still try to actually use it to get some serious work done at least half of the time (my two kids occasionally like to eat). Ad 2. I personally approached linux primarily from the philosophical point of view. I’m one of those persons that never confuse “open source” with “free”, and an admirer of R. M. Stallman. His writings and ideas were in fact the single most relevant factor that pushed me to definitely make the great leap and abandon Windows forever. I am sorry for not being enough computer savvy to actually use gNewSense – I consider Debian (my current OS) the optimal compromise between a “Free” and a “working” OS. For the time being, at least. My hope is that, in time, either Debian’s guidelines will progressively approach the FSF guidelines, or gNewSense will become enough newbie-friendly to make it possible to use either OS as a true “free software” implementation. There ARE people ou there who really want their OS to be free (as in freedom), although they may be a tiny minority. My heart sinks every time a dubious, not-completely-free feature threatens to get introduced into Debian, and I am glad for Debian’s “take it or leave it” policy. It’s not a dictatorship. It’s more like a way of saying, hey, there are so MANY distros out there, why don’t you try and find one that fits your needs better than Debian?
Klistvud
June 11, 2009
I have found almost without exception the biggest fascists in FOSS are from the Debian camp. They will be the first to correct you and tell you that is is not Linux, but GNU/Linux which is untrue. Debian calls itself GNU/Linux but few other distros do. It is Ubuntu Linux, not GNU/Linux. They have little patience for anyone who disagrees with them and their notion of freedom only is on their terms, which is not free at all, once you add constraints.
They do not welcome newbies and are happy to turn people away who do not conform to their ideal. That is not my idea of freedom. I respect RMS and am politically close to his expressed views. When passion becomes zealotry and there is little tolerance for others who disagree, then we part ways.
BTW, I have run afoul of them many times and do intentionally to rattle their chain. Sometimes you need to have your nose rubbed in your own mess before you recognize it for what it is.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
“It is Ubuntu Linux, not GNU/Linux”
Wrong. It’s Ubuntu, not Ubuntu Linux.
ademeion
July 6, 2009
I agree with you completely. It seems so obvious that I do not understand why the Mono fans are so ugly about it. Just move Mono and Mono apps into a distro’s repo and leave them out of the default install. That’s all. Just like many distros leave out libmad or other encumbered, yet “Free” software.
I left Ubuntu for many reasons, including this and other similar problems, and I am glad.
srhudy
June 11, 2009
I have exactly the same issues. What’s worse is that while Fedora and debian are improving in this situation. Ubuntu is setting to actually get worse. There are way too many interests wanting to replace a perfectly working music player, with a lesser quality one, just because it runs in Mono.
I really cannot agree with the idea that the flag Linux distro needs MS technology to play music. That’s absolutely not true, however canonical seems not to care about giving that image.
So looking for a solution, I’ll have to move to Fedora, and if I don’t like it much, I’ll have to make an ubuntu remix that comes with no Mono, that’s a problem to me as I don’t really have the bandwidth resources to even upload it or host it though.
I wish though that somebody listened, if Canonical is pretending this not to be an issue, someone should really make this remix. Of course this is assuming Banshee is added, I doubt it will happen in 9.10 , I doubt it would happen until 10.10 (if it happens)
But if it happens, I think the community truly has to show opposition, else the Mono zealots’ push will make it so they won’t stop and will keep replacing perfectly working apps with Mono alternatives.
vexorian
June 11, 2009
Good for you. I am a long time Ubuntu user also tired of their mono mantra. I’m heading off to Gentooland with -mono use flags.
Mono is a disease you get from kissing the wrong people, it all comes down to that.
Trilliji
June 11, 2009
Hi,
I am adding my voice to my good friend Trilliji who posted here on the 11th.
We share the same view of mono, the ever infecting linux disease ( cancer by ballmer; oh my how FEW of you seem to remember that or care ? ).
Now we know, thx To sam as noted via ITwire, that the much honored ECMA license promise,,is full of holes as it doesnt exist!..what is this spin from M$, is that even possible ?
Fedora is removing it, and though I dont really feel its as stable as it could or should be , maybe in time it will get there, and it will get there without that disease which will bring ubuntu down.
The anger and filth I have seen coming out of the mono supporters is appauling , not only that but also the hypocrisy. THey claim FUD on every ubuntu post to avoid the ‘truth’, yet dont see the FUD(log) in their own eye.
It’s a shame the world isn’t ‘free’ and that all entities exist to that end, but that day isn’t today, therefore…
We go there together friend, without the dreaded disease, I’m right behind you
cu
nl
neighborlee
June 11, 2009
[...] other article, from a user and expressed in plain and heartfelt language, tells us why he feels Mono is not for [...]
The Open Sourcerer » The Ubuntu/Mono debate continues…
June 12, 2009
I’m a user, not a developer. I have no stake in Mono at all, or in Microsoft for that matter.
Stop this stupidity! This is fundamentalism at its worst, and it is doing no good to anyone.
Mono is not dangerous. It is not the second coming either. It is simply a basis for some great apps, like Gnome Do, Tomboy and Banshee.
The biggest obstacle to Linux on the desktop is religious nuts such as most people involved in the Mono hating.
Ketil
June 12, 2009
I love the smell of Windows Trolls in the morning…
I honestly agree with your opinions. The comments that people are leaving is laughable.
Forcing your opinions on others? Hardly.
Linux is an operating system that revolves around the user. It should be up to the user on how to use it. If you don’t want a desktop installed, you can get a command line install. If you want to bootstrap your kernel, whatever. If you don’t want mono on your distro, that should be an option too. What’s happning with Mono seems to be a Microsoft-esque way of software distribution.
Then there are people who say it shouldn’t matter.
To them, if they want to give their freedom away, let them. THey have no right to force their opinions on you. Kind of hypocritical, don’t you think? Why should you have to bow to their arrogant stance?
Just uninstall Mono.
If ANYBODY knows how Microsoft works, they will also know that they want it to be as difficult as possible to uninstall their crap.
The .NET firefox addon, anybody? The one you can’t uninstall because the button is disabled?
Microsoft is paying people to FUD ODT and other free software initiatives. Comments are comments: opinions not facts.
Like mine: I’m going to attempt to move away from Ubuntu.
Unhappy
June 14, 2009
[...] a incluir Mono por defecto, tenemos a openSUSE y a Ubuntu. Como siempre, hay gente a favor y gente en contra. Cuando yo era usuario de openSUSE, lo primero que hacía era personalizarme la instalación y [...]
Mono: sí o no. ¿Por qué? | MuyLinux
June 15, 2009
[...] and clothes ripping found in some blog posts. Of particular note was Linux Canuck’s post "Ubuntu is Driving Me Away". In my opinion, statements such as "…Anything that starts with Microsoft and goes via the [...]
Mono in Ubuntu, Yes or No? | Ubuntu Linux Help
June 16, 2009
thanks for the helpful info.
michael
June 21, 2009
“Microsoft is opposed to me and my way of thinking. They have never cared about me” – jesus, what a cry-baby.
ps. Ever heard of proof-reading?
GrownUp
June 22, 2009
I can see what you’re trying to say. From my own perspective, I would love to install a boot sector Linux on my Win PC, but I don’t have the room, and all my work is in fact Microshaft programming. I would LOVE to move to Linux and get my hands dirty in programming. I would then have to program in my spare time (away from work) which unfortuantley is a busman’s holiday for me, and something my desire does not overflow enough to warrant (.. yet!). Having a Linux distribution with something that has the tools for me to develop like an M$ guru and then also have the Linux OS behind the scene is actually ideal! I can then please bosses and also please my Linux craving.
I would like to know your opinion on this.
Much /usr/respect!
Tim
Tim
June 22, 2009
I actually like the idea of Mono…. i mean… c’mon, Microsoft definately would not endorse it! it enables apps to be created that run on all platforms! eventually, a large amount of software is going to work on all platforms regardless if you use windows, linux, mac etc… I think cross compatibility with apps is an excellent idea. Then finally, the platform will not matter to the user… more windows users will turn to linux instead of paying for windows each release because not their fav apps run on linux… even GAMES! are starting to get made using mono… Linux can only gain from Mono in my opinion… I don’t know what all the fuss is about. Cross compatibility is An Awesome idea! who’s gonna use windows if their apps/games work on a FREE Operating system???
kaddy
June 23, 2009
Your’re such a whining pussy, it’s hilarious! Get a grip of life!
solus lupus
June 23, 2009
Great. Another uninformed fanatic “fanboi” spouting their ridiculous nonsense. It’s people like linux canuck that tempt me to try out Windoze 7….
Buck Fuddy
June 23, 2009
No one seems to realize that SilVerliGht is a ripoff of SVG. Mono is Microsoft taking SVG, making it proprietary by changing the names of the elements and attributes, and giving an open standard back to Linux as a Microsoft proprietary standard.
Why is it that no one speaks of this. GET IT OFF ME!!!!
Rick Graham
June 23, 2009
To sum up all you wrote , you are nuts
zgerteled
June 23, 2009
This is insane. Hating a free implementation of a free specification because the creators (MS) earn money on their implementation? I don’t think that Microsoft want/is going to kill Linux or the open-source community, certainly not with CLI (Common Language Infrastructure, which .NET and Mono are based on. Propietary and open-source software will both continue to co-exist as long, but it requires the open-source linux community to accept those who want to get paid for their work.
Personally I believe that companies like MS should be able to use open-source components in their products if they want to. It would also require them to contribute to the community if they changed any code.
I like .NET framework. I’m mostly a MS and Windows guy. I also like Linux and what it has to offer. And Mono let my applications be executed on Linux as well as Windows. I see advantages in both OS:es and I don’t believe in a world without both and a choice that can be made through ones needs.
I want to add that I think MS did the right thing when they made their specifications available and then standardized them. It is a good strategy that I think it is neutral in this conflict.
Robert
June 23, 2009
[root@localhost ~]# yum erase mono-core
Removed:
mono-core.x86_64
Dependency
avahi-sharp.x86_64
banshee.x86_64
banshee-mirage.x86_64
banshee-musicbrainz.x86_64
boo.x86_64
f-spot.x86_64
gnome-sharp.x86_64
gnome-subtitles.x86_64
gtk-sharp2.x86_64
log4net.x86_64
mono-addins.x86_64
mono-data.x86_64
mono-data-sqlite.x86_64
mono-extras.x86_64
mono-ndoc.x86_64
mono-nunit.x86_64
mono-nunit22.x86_64
mono-sharpcvslib.x86_64
mono-web.x86_64
mono-winforms.x86_64
mono-zeroconf.x86_64
monodoc.x86_64
nant.x86_64
ndesk-dbus.x86_64
ndesk-dbus-glib.x86_64
notify-sharp.x86_64
podsleuth.x86_64
sublib.x86_64
taglib-sharp.x86_64
Complete!
… ahhh, that feels better.
anotherlinuxcanuck
June 23, 2009
We all act out of self interest. You do to if you are honest. Businesses must act out of self interest or they will fail as a business.
The problem is that Microsoft and other corporations (IBM, Apple, SUN, Oracle, AT&T) have all crossed lines and have not played by the rules.
As in soccer, competition is good. Each team acting in its own self-interest but they have to play by the rules. Tripping is rule-breaking and unfair to the other team.
If we were honest, we would all find ourselves guilty at some point. MS has been guilty, but they are not always guilty.
John Gardner
June 23, 2009
The odd thing about FOSS is that it’s supposed to be dictated by the community.
But as you can see, each distro has its own maintainers who feel all to high and powerful to choose what to and what NOT to include in their distro.
Where’s the community control here? Where’s that freedom?
Call me if you find it.
hukares
June 23, 2009
Well I guess since Open Standards like C# and the fact that EVEN Debian includes mono that this appears to me as FUD. You use the same logic for not using mono that Microsoft uses to get people not to use Linux. Its scare tactics of a lawsuit, but who are they going to sue? Me good luck. Anyways it seems that the whole reason why gnome was created as a counter to KDE’s Qt lincese that things have done a 180. Come to KDE
and its GPL LGPL goodness.
Also I second that you would be happier with Fedora’s thinking. Not every distro is for everyone. Personally I like Arch but its a bleeding edge rolling realease and I doubt you want that from your comments.
But why the RPM hatred? That was true like 3-5 years ago? Its Redhat your saying has technically inferior repos. REDHAT. I would look into why you and others FUD RPM today for issues of years past.
mtelesha
June 26, 2009
Oh, another clueless fanboy…
/sigh
SSO
June 27, 2009
Quote: “There are many alternatives to Mono. There is absolutely no need to use it.” Now…here is the point where I think you are making a mistake. Just because alternatives exist, it doesn’t mean there is no need for using something. In fact, I think that having alternatives is the essence of free software. Following your line of thought, can you say “There are many alternatives to C++. There is absolutely no need to use it”? My point is that each technology has its own merits and good points, from which everybody should learn something. You saying “I don’t want to hear about it” is ok as a personal <>. On the problem of choice: Let’s say I want to use KDE, but I don’t want to use X. Hey…not really an option right? Just imposing artificial constraints is bad. It’s technology, don’t make it a religion. It’s a world where Linux and Windows coexist, even if you don’t like it.
coughar
June 30, 2009
i was try ubuntu on my computer, but it’s have
a big trouble for seting printer, please give me
areason, for my small gadget
Best Gadget Reviews
July 9, 2009
I don’t see what the big Mono harp is all about. Couldn’t people say the same thing about Samba and FAT? Though Microsoft didn’t specifically make Samba (created at IBM iirc), it is the pioneer that pushed it to what it is today, and if not for MS using it in Windows we probably won’t have Samba. FAT the same thing, are you stripping the kernel modules out that support FAT and NTFS?
Most colleges crank out DotNet developers because it is a huge development landscape, and I think Mono is great in that it gives these coders a voice in the open source world.
For anyone who’s an altruistic FOSS user, the only way to have a distro completely free of any software influenced by Microsoft or any other commercial entity is to run with Linux From Scratch – http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ . I applaud anyone who’s morality forces them to do this, but for me I’ll use the best tools for the job, and if that means dipping into the FOSS projects that were influenced by commercial entities, including Microsoft, then I have no couth.
Sam Alex
August 19, 2009
“I don’t see what the big Mono harp is all about. Couldn’t people say the same thing about Samba and FAT? ”
MONO and Samba have nearly nothing in common regarding patents:
http://blog.christophersmart.com/articles/mono-an-infectious-disease/
Regarding what you say about FAT, why should we see a lot of trouble to get ourselves straight into an obvious trap of MONO, because an ages old technology, implemented in Linux long time ago, has recently proven to be problematic? I can’t see any logic in what you say.
“Though Microsoft didn’t specifically make Samba (created at IBM iirc), it is the pioneer that pushed it to what it is today”
Microsoft a Samba pioneer? – no no no:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samba_(software)
Ari T.
August 22, 2009
I totally agree. This is one of the reasons why I’ve moved off of Ubuntu to Fedora (version 11 totally rocks by the way.)
Ken Mac
August 26, 2009
It all boils down to this. Everything MicroSoft does has a hidden agenda to gain control. This is not conjecture, it’s empirical.
The usefulness of mono is not an issue, it’s proprietary, owned by Microsoft and if we let it get control in Linux we will get burned.
Fool me once, shame on you, but come on, after hundreds of times it becomes blatantly obvious.
Rick Graham
August 27, 2009
Thanks once again for all of the comments. Mono has passionate supporters as well as detractors like me. I just don’t see the need and nothing has convinced me otherwise. However, I don’t seek to convert anyone to my side, just to share my angst.
My solution is to stick with Ubuntu/Kubuntu and to modify it to suit my purposes and needs. I have lost a little respect for those in my community who persist in taking us down this road when their are other options. The decision to include Banshee in Karmic concerns me. Not because Banshee is good or bad, but because it is a deviation from what has been the norm which is to support GNOME and KDE projects first. They said that Banshee was more actively being developed than Rhythmbox. Does that mean that they will start abandoning other parts of GNOME which are not as popular? I think not. So it comes down to making this a political decision in favour of Mono at a time when other communities such as Fedora are questioning Mono’s credentials. This effectively snuffs out debate on Mono in the Ubuntu community and makes it look like Mono insiders are in control. That is too bad.
I don’t like anything that comes from Microsoft including .NET and Mono. I have never made a secret of that. It has has to do with the way that Microsoft controls things by establishing a standard, breaks the standard they started and keeping everyone scrambling and dancing to their tune. Meanwhile innovation is being stifled and standards trashed. Mono opens a Pandora’s box that did not need to be opened and makes us subject to the whims of a company that is antagonistic to us at best.
However, supporters of Mono do not see it this way. They are looking at what is in it for them and not what is good for the community. I see that as short sighted. I cannot convince them because they do not wish to be convinced, so trying is a waste of time. It is too bad that they need to resort to name calling and bashing opponents who only care about the commmunity and are every bit as passionate as they are.
Did you ever notice that the bashing only goes one way? People may bash Mono and Microsoft, but not other users. But Mono supporters delight in bashing others who disagree with them. I cannot respect anyone who resorts to name calling or put downs to make a point. The Mono side loses on this issue alone, IMO.
linuxcanuck
August 27, 2009
lol. so many people take the facts out of context. MONO is not a collaboration, or a deal or Anything to do with Microsoft! Yes, it is a compatible framework with .NET, and will allow future Programs to be compatible with ALL platforms…. This is not something that MICROSOFT will be Happy about! This gives users More and More reason to consider Linux or Mac, because they will be able to run their favourite Programs/Games on Whatever Platform the desire…. hence… Linux being Free… Who would PAY for Windows or Mac when you can Use All your programs on Linux??? Cross compatibility is a GOOD idea… it jabs the knife into Microsoft and twists it… And theres nothing that Microsoft can do about it… It has the potential to destroy them in the Operating System Area… if that doesn’t, then Cloud Computing Will… People will NO LONGER need to Pay for an Operating System…. !!! Don’t you People Get it!??? I am ALL for Mono… The bait is being Rheeled out there, and the fish will eventually catch on.
kaddy
August 27, 2009
This post is great, I share the same feeling.
Thanks
Davide
August 27, 2009
@ the person who posted this… although your full post was quite good, I still disagree with you, especially this part….
QUOTE
“Quote “However, supporters of Mono do not see it this way. They are looking at what is in it for them and not what is good for the community. I see that as short sighted.”
I actually see your comment as short sighted, and what is in it for YOU… because of your disagreement in the direction that it is heading… Mono Will bring Cross Compatibility of Programs to ALL platforms…. Don’t just think of the LINUX community… THAT is being short sighted… how about thinking of the LINUX, MAC, AND WINDOWS User Community Who Want their Programs to Run on Any Operating System THEY Choose!??? THAT is where MONO comes in and fixes this issue…
kaddy
August 28, 2009
QUOTE “Author: hukares
Comment:
The odd thing about FOSS is that it’s supposed to be dictated by the community.
But as you can see, each distro has its own maintainers who feel all to high and powerful to choose what to and what NOT to include in their distro.
Where’s the community control here? Where’s that freedom?
LOL This post makes me laugh… You just don’t get it. Your saying that the Groups that Create/Develop and Maintain THEIR specific Distro Should NOT have control of what they put in it or not??? And that another Community Should have control of what goes on in All distro’s and make decisions on what OTHER Developers should do???? LOL… well I ask you the same question…. Where would the FREEDOM be in THAT??? your funny
kaddy
August 28, 2009
I am asking for consistency. Canonical does one thing with restricted extras and another with Mono. If it is to be a wide open policy I am fine with that. This would place others in the situation I find myself in. They would feel tainted with proprietary junk just as I feel unclean with having to remove Mono. Canonical has been successful in straddling the fence on the issue of proprietary drivers and codecs by packaging is as meta-package that can be added post-installation. I think that Mono should be handled the same if they really desire to treat everyone equally.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
Well. The biggest one is a database programme that I keep track of my movies in. It is called Griffith and I can’t get along without it as years of movies are stored in it. It is in the Ubuntu repositories, but not Fedora’s. There are several others as well. Say what you want to about Ubuntu, but there isn’t much that isn’t in their repositories.
linuxcanuck
June 11, 2009
# yum info griffith
Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, presto, refresh-packagekit
Available Packages
Name : griffith
Arch : noarch
Version : 0.10
Release : 0.1.beta2.fc11
Size : 915 k
Repo : updates
Summary : Media collection manager
URL : http://www.griffith.cc
License : GPLv2+
What else?
neo
June 11, 2009
Thanks. I have stored that in my mind and will definitely give Fedora 11 a look.
linuxcanuck
June 12, 2009
linuxcanuk: “Mono should be handled the same if they really desire to treat everyone equally.”
So you would treat a hamster with the same trust as a crocodile? I think you would tend to be wary of the croc.
My trust is easily given, but if you abuse it as many times as Microsoft has then it’s gone for good.
No, no, no deals, associations, collaborations or outright gifts from Microsoft. They cannot be trusted.
Rick Graham
August 27, 2009
As a user, on Windows I use exactly one essential .NET application – Paint.NET. Could anyone run it on Linux? If yes, Mono should be embraced. If nobody could, Mono is not an issue.
Andrey
August 27, 2009