Is it GNU/Linux or Linux?

Posted on January 11, 2009. Filed under: Computing General, Linux General, Operating Systems |

Linux: From Freedom to Fascism

It is Debian GNU/Linux, but it is Linux Mint and just plain old Ubuntu. But Canonical says Ubuntu is a Linux-based distro, not a GNU/Linux based distro. It is also PCLinuxOS and not PCGNU/LinuxOS. Redhat calls it Redhat Linux and the list goes on. So what is it GNU/Linux or Linux?

I have been criticised for using Linux by itself and have seen others being chastised for it elsewhere. You write a long article and the only comment from some people is that you failed to call it GNU/Linux. They are showing disdain for you and are telling you that they will not read what you write until you follow their terminology. I get it, but don’t like the bad attitude. Their cause suffers as a result of their rudeness and quite frankly I don’t care that they choose not to read what I write. I actually believe in freedom.

To be fair some people do call it GNU/Linux in preference to Linux, but is this accurate or even desirable? There is a GNU operating system and some of their work is used in today’s Linux-based operating systems. However, they did not complete their kernel. In fairness they deserve credit, but this does not automatically mean that they deserve to have it as part of the name. The name GNU/Linux assumes that they deserve equal billing and one would have to make a case for that before doing so. Once that was done we would have decide whether it was a desirable name. I will skip to this last point and deal with the other one later.

My first problem with GNU/Linux is that it is a dumb name, at least the GNU part. A name should have meaning that is recognisable and does not require explanation. It is like a joke. If you have to explain its meaning, then it is not a good joke. GNU means something to some people, but like all acronyms it is jargon and it means nothing to most people. By the way, it means GNU’s Not Unix. Get it? It is recursive. It is like an inside joke and not even a good one at that. It is a geek’s idea of what is a good name. It is not marketable. It is not memorable and it needs explanation. Many people wouldn’t even know how to pronounce it.

So to me, it can’t be GNU/Linux. It is not out of disrespect for the GNU folks or anyone else who has contributed to what we all use. It is out of common sense. GNU is a name for a loser of an operating system. Linux is hard enough to pronounce for people unfamiliar with it, without adding GNU to it. If the folks at GNU had come up with a better name then they might have won the name derby. They didn’t and in my mind they lost.

It is plain Linux to most people. It can be GNU/Linux to those who are determined to use it, but don’t expect it to catch on. It is your idea of a good name, not mine. Don’t believe me? Google “Linux” and count the number of times that you find GNU used before it and the number of times that you find Linux alone. Check out the over 300 distributions and see how many of them use GNU in the name. Face it. GNU/Linux is in the vast minority. Misguided though we may be, to the rest of the world it is Linux, not GNU/Linux. There is a reason for that. Linux is catchy and shows its Unix roots, without being wordy. I could find four or five distributions that use GNU in the name and the other roughly three hundred use just Linux.  If that is not convincing enough, remember that most developers are geeks. So it seems that even geeks recognise that GNU is an impediment to the adoption of their distribution.

Linux, strictly speaking, is the kernel. There is the Linux Foundation which is developing the kernel on an ongoing basis. There is also a GNU organisation who gave us the GPL and a Free Software Foundation. Check the GNU.org website and it says that GNU OS started in 1983 and “GNU’s kernel isn’t finished, so GNU is used with the kernel Linux.” You can check their site and get a full list of their contributions and they are substantial.

Most these contributions, the average person will never use themselves, but the coders use them and the coders give us Linux and the open source programmes that we like. Most of their programmes run from the terminal. I checked my installation and some are installed, but the vast majority are not and I have many more programmes installed than the average user. Everybody has the kernel installed. It is central to any operating system and even the GNU operating system claims to use the Linux kernel.

So what is the GNU operating system? Go to their site and find out. I guarantee that almost none would want to use it. Try to download it and there is no ISO, just a bunch of files that most of you have never heard of. If they produce something that we wouldn’t use why would we want to name it after GNU? This addresses the equal billing argument.

For me it is a no brainer. GNU lost the race for the kernel. Their work is rolled in with the Linux kernel, so they want some respect. I say give it to them, but because they chose a dumb name then they don’t deserve to have that as part of the name for the operating system. End of story for me.

This debate will continue because there is some bad blood. Richard Stallman has urged people not to follow Linus Torvalds and Torvalds has fired a few salvos in Stallman’s direction. People take sides and it gets emotional. I get that. It does not mean that Stallman or Torvalds is automatically correct. The truth can be somewhere in between. They are only people and fallible at that. I refuse to vilify or lionise anyone, even iconic figures like these, on the opinion of someone else.

Emotion can be an impediment to common sense. We should not base the name on something that is irrational or arbitrary. A name should be chosen carefully and with intent. It should not be the accidental result of merging two projects with dissimilar names. And why stop there? We should use the names of everybody who has ever contributed to produce Linux, if your goal is pay homage. However, if you want the name to catch on, then you need to have different mindset.

I have been told that because I believe in the right of someone to produce software and impose restrictions on the user, that I don’t believe in freedom. I don’t buy that either. People can produce what they like. It is a free world. People produce many products that I don’t use or even agree with.

I believe in free software as in free speech. That does not mean that there is no place for proprietary software. If I believe that others have the right to develop software that is proprietary, it does not mean that I believe less in software freedom. If you give rights to yourself, but exclude others from using those rights in their own way, then you do not believe in freedom. You believe in restriction.

Freedom of choice is also the freedom to choose wrongly or make decisions that we don’t agree with. If I can do it, then so should others be able to. That is the ethic that I live by in all things. A right is not a right unless it is universal. I believe in free speech. I do not agree with the way everyone uses that freedom, but recognise their right to say things that I disagree with. My freedom is also to not believe the things that people say. Similarly, you don’t have to use proprietary software, but can still extend them the freedom to produce it. That’s what choice is all about. Let the user decide.

That is where I disagree with the direction of some people in the GNU camp. They think that they should be able to act freely, but others should not. They want to dictate terms to others and that is precisely what people are doing when they insist that we all call it GNU/Linux. That is dictatorship. Any dictatorship, even a benevolent one, is contrary to the ideal of freedom. Imposing freedom just does not work. When you impose your will on another person, you don’t add to their choice, but you remove it.

So, now we come to my most important reason for my not calling it GNU/Linux. Some GNU people come across as fascists and I don’t think that this is what the free software movement is all about. The vision of these Linux fascists is narrow and their aspirations are wrong headed. They see things from top down. They have come up with the vision and they expect others to buy into it. I don’t accept that because of the way it is being presented.

The Debian social contract for example is fine in principle. However, social implies people and that implies democracy and the social contract is far from democratic. It is something dreamed up in isolation of the end users, on an organisational level. The principle is more important than the people for whom it supposedly exists. That is the essence of fascism. It is like saying, “We believe in freedom and to make sure that you are free we will force this document one you and if you don’t like it, then you can leave.”  Mussolini referred to fascism as Corporatism. It is where the corporate body or organisation takes precedence over individual rights.

If I am going to be part of anything, it has to be consensual. I have to feel a part of it. My voice has to count and that means that yours does as well. This is where I have a problem with GNU, the Free Software Foundation and  users who try to impose their views on others. Even if the things they espouse are desirable, it loses any value because it is being imposed.

I want people to think about what freedom means. Then if they say they believe in it then they should actually live by it. Allow people to act freely, exercising their freedom of choice, even if it is in ways that you don’t agree with. If you use the term GNU/Linux then don’t expect others to do so simply because you choose to. If you want to educate them then that is your business, but realise that in the end you may have to agree to disagree.

As for me, I will call it Linux or just plain Ubuntu, Fedora or whatever. I think that GNU/Linux will in the end be counter-productive and turn users off. Allow me this freedom and I will allow you to call it whatever you want.

By the way, the don’t like it when we call it open source. Their lexicon uses free software. Whatever. Ditto for that.

Note: Most people who call it Linux do not care and do not condemn people for calling it GNU/Linux. As such it is a one way street. Hence, my condemnation is directed one way.

I find that Ubuntu and most other distributions welcome diverse opinions and new users. They are accepting of others and do not make judgements based on words that we use. They could not care less what we call it, so long as we use it and it meets our needs. Does this mean that they believe less in software freedom? I think not. As such, these distributions are growing. It is not so much that they have something that is better, but that the community is more in tune with a multi-cultural world. Different is good and a difference in opinion is healthy.

In contrast some distributions are struggling and are losing users. They tend to be autocratic and the attitude seems to be, this it what we are, love it or leave it. Not surprisingly, that is a turn off and people are leaving. You can have a superior product, but if you don’t market it properly, then it will fold. I know; I once owned a Betamax. It is a tough lesson to learn, but history bears this out. Walk the walk and talk the talk.

I have tried to be fair, but opinions seldom are as they are value-laden in the end. Please remember, that this is not expressed as fact, but as one person’s opinion.

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20 Responses to “Is it GNU/Linux or Linux?”

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a little bit of history ..once upon a time, there were people who believe software should be used in a certain way and they sat down, build and distribute it the way that agrees with their philosophy ..these people call themselves “free software” people ..the bigger face on this group is richard stallman

..later on, other people came and liked how they build and distribute their software but did not like their politics ..they just liked the practical aspect of what the first group was doing but didnt really care about their politics and they branched out and call themselves “open source” people and one of their most popular people is linus torvald ..

people who care about the philosophy that started the whole thing call linux GNU/Linux and people who just like linux because its different/secure/cheap(it costs $0) call it just linux ..

so, there are two sides to this ,,free software people and open source software people ..some people want to remain pure to the cause and others swing from one point to another based on what works best for them ..

so, there is a debate going on ..if you write about free software, open source people will comment on your blog ..if you write about open source software, free software people will comment ..this should be expected on anything that has more than one side ..

you seem to be on the open source side so getting irritated by comments from the free software people is understandable as i am sure people on that side have raised issues on open source people ..

MTZ,
Thanks for your long comment which lays out two different sides. However, I am not sure if you understand what you are saying. which is basically that anyone who uses GNU/Linux believes in free software (as in free speech, not free beer) and anyone who calls it Linux only believes in free as in free beer. That paints a very broad stroke and covers almost all users, developers and most distributions as only interested in no money changing hands, instead of software freedom.
I have to disagree. I think that there are many outside the GNU/Linux community that believe in the exact same things. The name itself is symbolic to you but not to others who only want to get the job done instead of splitting hairs. The GNU/Linux folks seem to be much more concerned about appearances and politics than cutting through the nonsense and actually producing anything. This is why Debian seems to move at a glacial pace and even their own users are frustrated and why GNU has not produced a kernel which their website seems to suggest that they have been working on since 1983.

I disagree. You disparage their work as if it is insignificant compared to the kernal. The kernal is only one part. Why not instead call it GNU instead of linux? I think you are the one who doesn’t understand the free philosophy. I bet you prefer to hear open source instead of free software too right? Work for M$ much?

FreeBooteR,
I thought I said that GNU was a dumb name. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. GNU is a dumb name.

[...] Is it GNU/Linux or Linux? It is Debian GNU/Linux, but it is Linux Mint and just plain old Ubuntu. But Canonical says Ubuntu is a Linux-based distro, not a GNU/Linux based distro. It is also PCLinuxOS and not PCGNU/LinuxOS. Redhat calls it Redhat Linux and the list goes on. So what is it GNU/Linux or Linux? [...]

I don’t agree that GNU is “just a little” of what GNU/Linux Operating System is…Your article seems as if it’s trying to belittle(even though you say your not belittling GNU) GNU.
Here’s some more explanation from the GNU side(Richard Stallman’s Free Software Foundation) of GNU/Linux:
“Most operating system distributions based on Linux as kernel are basically modified versions of the GNU operating system. We began developing GNU in 1984, years before Linus Torvalds started to write his kernel. Our goal was to develop a complete free operating system. Of course, we did not develop all the parts ourselves—but we led the way. We developed most of the central components, forming the largest single contribution to the whole system. The basic vision was ours too.
In fairness, we ought to get at least equal mention.”
From:
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

Shannon,
Thanks so much for your reply. You almost restore my faith. I truly hope that GNU is sincere in this. My problem basically is that I think that the often voiced opinions of many including Stallman that there is no place for anything but free, as in free speech. Hence, my last criticism.
However, I stand by my position that GNU/Linux is an unworkable and stupid name. I don’t care if GNU got all of the credit and Linux none, as long as you had chosen a good name. You didn’t. GNU is not a good name for an OS. Sorry if you disagree.
Most people don’t care about history. They only care about now. I hope that GNU and Linux Foundation can put this issue to rest and settle on a name that is useful. Until then I will call it Linux because it is a better name.

> Their work is rolled in with the Linux kernel, so they want some respect.
> I say give it to them, but because they chose a dumb name then they don’t
> deserve to have that as part of the name for the operating system

Funny, I think MSNBC is a dumb name; NBC should have picked something better so its their fault and we shouldn’t use that part of it. I just watch the MS News Channel now.

Seriously the general argument about the naming is an important one, and one that is likely never really going to end. I prefer to give the GNU project its props, for without it the Linux kernel is useless and the GNU project got this whole movement going.

I also agree that, from a marketing perspective and explaining all of this to newbies, GNU/Linux is pretty bad.

I have no solution, but I don’t think that dropping GNU is a good idea.

Lefty.Crupps
Thanks for your comments and I agree with most of what you have said. I could live with just GNU, if iIhad to, but I don’t think that it is a winner, as I said in the blog. I think that the shared name is unworkable, as you mention. Perhaps someone could suggest a neutral name that had some class and significance befitting of such a great operating system. What about something incorporation “Free” as it is something that we could agree on?

To all,
I don’t want it to appear that I am dumping on GNU or FSF. I am dumping on the name “GNU and GNU/Linux” and some users who are in that camp who come across as fascists. Most users are not this way. However, it is the bad apples that spoil the whole bunch, as they say.
The work of GNU is important and they deserve respect. It does not need to be in the name, though. It is an ugly name which just does not cut it, IMO.
I stand by my comments about the GNU offering on the web. Unfortunately it looks like something cobbled together serving no useful purpose, other than to say that you are active and have an OS. Whether this is in fact true, I don’t know. Appearances can be deceiving. Does anyone actually use it?
This gives the appearance that Linux Foundation is actively developing and improving things while GNU is resting on its laurels of yesterday. I don’t think that this is true, but I could be wrong. This may be a PR problem for them that they should address.
Generally speaking, I think that the Linux side of things does a far superior job of marketing itself. If Debian wants to compete for users (and I have no reason to believe that they do or don’t, other thn other than the oft voiced complaints that Ubuntu is successful at their expense), then they should try some PR of their own. With so many newbies coming to Linux, you won’t attract them without some honey. If nothing else, it would educate outsiders about what they are attempting.
I say drop the handle GNU/Linux and drop the attitude that everyone who disagrees with you is either stupid or inferior. We can believe in the same principles, but go about it in different ways.
I believe that there is room for everyone and every point of view. Even Windows has a place and Windows users are not sell-outs or losers for choosing it. They just know that it is in their vested interest to use it for whatever reason works for them. Now having said that, does this mean that I don’t believe in software freedom? If I use mp3 instead of OGG Vorbis am I the enemy of freedom? If I want to run Firefox and don’t care about their proprietary logo am I working against GNU? Sometimes taking a principled position and sticking with it leads you into all sorts of grey areas that frustrate ordinary users. Most users don’t want to think about them. They just want to enjoy computing. The GNU/Linux camp seems to be about spoiling the fun in the name of holding fast to an ideal that most people don’t share because they think that the world is built on the idea of give and take, rather than uncompromising, blind devotion.
I don’t know Richard Stallman or Linus Torvalds. But Stallman comes across in the media as rigid and obsessed with detail and no fun at all, while Torvalds comes across as having a sense of humour and being introspective, if not a bit paranoid. People who know them may see them totally differently, but that is not what comes out in what they write and say. This is symbolic to me of the discussion here with GNU/Linux being about ideas and not fun and Linux being all about putting the fun back into computing.
This is a big difference between the two sides of the equation. The Linux folks care about image and manage it well. This may answer why most people are attracted to it and call it Linux. The GNU folks seem to care about ideas at all cost and to heck with the image. It isn’t until someone like me starts to question what is going on that they jump in all defensively and either contemptuously dismiss you with an obscenity or call you a name. Neither of which educates the person to your point of view or helps to build your image. A little pre-emptive image building along the lines of the Linux camp would go a long way to improving the public reaction, especially when you are getting into public disputes with major developers such as Mozilla.

Free Software is mainly a philosophy and they talk about principles and advancement of those principles to the masses

Open source is all about open software development and distribution ,,open source is build inside free software but the reverse if not true

An open source fanatic will say ..”let spread open source to the masses!!! even if that means put microsoft components into the whole thing”

free software fanatics will want to keep it pure at the expense of numbers of users ..

like i said there are the principles and practical aspect of it ..you will come out as a free software person when you talk about principles and you will come out as an open source guy when you talk about practicality of using the thing

we all use GNU/linux since we need both components to the make the whole thing work ..comments like “the name sucks!!..nobody cares about the politics of it, we just want it to work ..put some binary blobs in it if thats what it takes” says you are a practical person and your comment will fall to the open source group

..where do you draw the line with “lets just make it work” ..given a free hand at this and you might end up with windows kernel since most drivers are written for it “..but ..but ..but it will just work!!”would you support that? ..that will be a bit too far for most people, how far will it be? you will need those free software people to tell you how far

pure free software is also not very usable and pure free software ecosystem can not exists for practical reasons

extremes exists for reason ..we need people on the extremes to tell the rest of us where the boundaries are and give us the opportunity to know where we are within these boundaries

both sides are needed, we need people who talk about principles and we need people who talk about practical aspects of things ..the compromise is in the middle ..

for labeling purposes those who talk about principles call it GNU/linux, those who talk about practical aspect of it call it linux ..

as with all belief systems ..get people to believe in something and they can do almost anything for free …open source side is riding on the momentum build up by the free software side. IF we give people open source software without telling them why it is build the way it is, they will not appreaciate it, develop it and the movement will loose momentum in time ..only commercial company will get involved and financial pressures might force them to make decisios that is not in the best interest of the software ..open source folks will say ..”atleast my grandmother could use it and thats all i care about” ..

i am sure i am sounding like a free software person because i am talking about the principles of it ..ha ha ha ..i recognize the reality but principles exists for a reason ..

just like in hard sciences, you have the theories and application of those theory .. you do your cause more harm than good if you skip the theory and jump to practically when spreading something to the masses because “nobody cares about the boring lecture”..

as an open source guy, its is understandable that the free software folks irritate you at times and i am sure the feeling is mutual

“Most these contributions, the average person will never use themselves,”
Really? Because I’ve had far more interaction with GNOME, the GIMP, Emacs, Gnumeric, Lilypond, wget and so on than I’ve ever had with the kernel. Are you *really* saying that more people perform direct kernel-level wizardry than edit text files in gedit, or browse the web with Epiphany, or play same-gnome, or watch videos with Totem or play music with Rhythmbox? More people interact with the kernel than use bash on the command line (usually in the GNOME terminal emulator)?

All those things are part of GNU, and to be honest I think you could replace the Linux kernel with a BSD kernel or the kernel from Solaris, or indeed the GNU HURD, and 99% of GNU/Linux users wouldn’t even know anything had changed.

Do you refer to Mac OS X as NetBSD because they use the NetBSD kernel? Or do you accept that the userland programs are the important thing there? If so, why the double standard?

Believe it’s a ‘dumb name’ if you want, but I think the people who write the software should get to decide what it’s called…

Andrew Hickey,
The part that you are responding to in the beginning of your post is an aside and has nothing to do with the name. I put it in after investigating the GNU site and what they are currently offering which in comparison to anything out there is pitiful. It is not a distro or an OS that anyone but a coder would use which is most people. None of the packages that you mention were listed on their site. No GNOME. No GIMP. No Lilypond, etc. You missed my point in any case, which is that what they are offering which may not be what you think is not worthy by today’s standards. If they want the recognition that we all think they deserve then they need to not only be relevant, but appear relevant.

The biggest problem with RMS is that he is a marketing nightmare. I say this in no disrespect. He is an ideologist and would probably take this as a compliment, anyway. But he has passed on his DNA so to speak to his followers. They do not care about appearances. It is the my way or the highway approach. This is what I mean by a marketing nightmare. You can’t openly be a dictator and expect people to willingly sign on. So when you don’t get respect, you should not be surprised. Respect is earned, aside for the innate respect we all deserve as people, and if you come across as a despot you won’t get much earned respect. It is the same with the website, which is why I included that bit. They can’t expect respect if your current work looks like a cobbled together abstraction of what people might actually use. Otherwise, it appears that you are resting on your laurels of past glory.

I said in my blog that I did not care who the OS was named after. I am not taking sides in an age old dispute. I am saying, GNU is a dumb name. GNU/Linux is worse than dumb. Linux is a good name, not because it is named after Linus, but because it is short and it works. There could be better names. I am open to suggestions. Just don’t give me GNU or anything faintly sounding like geeky nonsense. We want a serious name befitting a serious operating system.

I like OS/X as a name. It is short. It is memorable. It has a slash, but it is basically just initials. You don’t even have to know what it means, although most people could guess that it is an operating system. I like Windows as a name. I don’t mind BSD because it isn’t expected to be pronounced. It is not a good name. I like Solaris as a name. GNU is not workable. A Gnu is an ox-like animal, also known as a wildebeest. It is not cute, nor marketable. You need to be told how to pronounce it. GNU as an OS name is even worse since i is not descriptive and has all of the liabilities of the animal name. It is not my problem that GNU chose a dumb name. It is theirs and they won’t get much respect until they do something about it. Keep it for the organisation, but call the OS something else.

Finally, my comments towards the end are even more relevant. The GNU side needs to start paying attention to public relations and start caring about people instead of just ideas. Principles don’t mean anything by themselves. Freedom cannot be taken in isolation of the people that you expect to be freed. If you leave them behind then your principles are worthless.

Thanks for your post. You make valid points. The GNU team *definitely* made critical advancements in Free Software that have in turn made Open Source software possible. They were, in fact, instrumental. So props to them for their hard work.

However, they do not get props for picking a slick, cool-sounding, or marketable name. Period. Nothing against the philosophy of the Free Software movement, but ‘GNU’ is a silly name. How is it pronounced? Is it Gee Enn Yoo? Is it Noo? Is it Guh NOO? All of the above are atrocious choices for marketing. So let me state it unequivocally because I know there are many who feel this way:
JUST BECAUSE WE FEEL THE NAME ‘GNU’ IS SILLY DOES *NOT* MEAN WE HATE FREE SOFTWARE, OR THAT WE HATE RMS OR FSF, OR THAT WE DISCOUNT THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE GNU ORGANIZATION.

So, to the GNU folks who want recognition, please suggest a name that includes “Free” or “Freedom” or something like that. And no, “gnuSense” is *NOT* a good name! (Is the g silent? Is it pronounced ‘nuisance’?!)

Bottom line: this is not a political or philosophical issue. It is a marketing one. If you *truly* believe in Free Software for the masses then you can step up by spending less time and energy worrying about ‘Linux’ vs ‘GNU/Linux’ and spend more time and energy in creating AND MARKETING Free Software. If mere recognition of the name ‘GNU’ is an impediment to the adoption of Free Software then recognition thereof should be sacrificed for the greater good, no?

You might want to actually spend ten minutes looking into what GNU actually *is* then if you think “what they are offering which may not be what you think is not worthy by today’s standards.”

Those things *are* all part of GNU. You could start by looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNU_packages and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNOME_applications (the ‘official’ applications at the top of that list are all part of GNOME, which is a GNU project). Those things are all part of GNU, and to try to even talk about the subject without being aware of that is just wilful ignorance.

Andrew Hickey,
And we all know how accurate Wikipedia is….
I went to the GNU.org website and actually looked at what is included in what they call the GNU operating system. This is what I was referring to. Again you are missing the point. If GNU is offering this and it is not worthy, then they are not putting their best foot forward. If they can’t present themselves better, why should we be expected to do it for them?
It does not matter anyway, my point was not to disrespect GNU, but the name. I don’t care if they gave us every package. GNU is a dumb name. GNU/Linux is even dumber. Come up with a better name. And whether you like it or not, the GNU folks don’t care about image. They should, if they want respect. What you are arguing against was an aside commentary, that does not change my problems with the name.
We can probably go on debating this ad nauseum. You like the name. I don’t. You buy into the GNU philosophy and I reject it. My rejection is not based on the principles themselves but on the implementation of those principles which is dictatorial and despotic, and anti-freedom, IMO. This of course is the divide which separates Linux into two camps about which I wrote. I don’t see any resolution because there can be no compromise when the other side wants to impose its views and will not consider that their approach might be wrong and be turning people off.
This problem will likely resolve itself as the GNU side will become increasingly irrelevant which is too bad. It could have been a good thing. I feel for all of the people who use Debian, for example. Debian will grow less important and developers will start to leave to where the action is. Some die hards will stay, but most people hate the politics and just want to work where they are appreciated. You can blame Ubuntu or Fedora or wherever they choose to go, but in the end they should blame themselves.
This is already beginning to happen. People in the industry are not only questioning the viability of Debian, but some are already lamenting its demise. This may be premature. I certainly don’t want to see it which is why I write this. Debian will continue to exist perhaps, but it will be shadow of its former self. Rail as you want about Ubuntu, but it changes nothing. Debian is caught in a time warp of its own design. It must sort this out on its own, but given its nature, I don’t see much hope.

linuxcanuck wrote:
“The GNU/Linux folks seem to be much more concerned about appearances and politics than cutting through the nonsense and actually producing anything. This is why Debian seems to move at a glacial pace and even their own users are frustrated and why GNU has not produced a kernel which their website seems to suggest that they have been working on since 1983.”

The concept of free software means that users should always be free to modify for their own needs all the computer programs they use on daily basis. If you don’t appreciate this kind of freedom, it is obvious that you should consider free software ideals as mere “appearances and politics”.

Debian may seem to move slowly if you only think about the stable releases. I use Debian’s testing branch and it moves quite fast in general, except when it is in freeze before a new release. Debian has also unstable development branch that moves even faster than the testing branch. Debian’s unstable branch does most of the development work also for many derivative distros, like Ubuntu. The development branches and derivative distros are proofs that Debian gets a lot of good work done between the stable releases. Also, Debian is THE biggest GNU/Linux distro: it supports more architectures and packages than any other distro. This clearly proves that Debian gets more work done than any of the other distros.

The GNU project hasn’t put much effort in developing their own kernel ever since the Linux kernel became good enough to be accepted as part of the GNU system (which has since then been called “GNU slash Linux” or “GNU plus Linux” to emphasize the fact that the Linux kernel was not made by GNU). The goal of GNU was never to write an operating system from scratch. Instead, their goal was from the very beginning to build a free operating system where users can freely modify all the programs for their individual needs. And I think they have pretty much succeeded in reaching that goal. :-)

Happy GNU year 2009!

Wizzard,
I appreciate freedom as much as anybody. But freedom can not be narrowly defined as RMS does. He says that there is no place for anything but free software. In other words, he is imposing his views on others. What kind of freedom is that? His definition of freedom and mine are vastly different.
Mine starts with freedom as an absolute and I add restrictions only so far as to protect rights. He starts with the idea that freedom should have restrictions. You can be free only so far as you agree to his terms. That is a fascist view and I cannot agree to it.
I think that you can embrace the concept of software freedom fully and still allow the other guy to produce software that does not conform to your definition. Let the user decide. Let developers go where they feel their place is.
I don’t want a dictatorship, whether fascist or communist. RMS is a visionary and smart man, but he is inflexible, uncompromising and comes across as a martinet. That is not the kind of leadership I want. Sorry, but I am not buying.
That does not mean that you can’t. I am glad for anyone who finds this vision satisfying. But don’t tell me that I don’t believe in freedom just because I reject a fascist vision of freedom.
You and most others here come across as sincere believers in software freedom and I respect that. However, there are plenty of brown shirts out there. I have met them online and they all come from the GNU camp, without exception. That does your cause no good and every time RMS opens his mouth it hurts your cause.
He and GNU have given much, but there comes a time when you must recognize the facts. Time marches on and you get left behind if you stand firm in your intransigence. Survivors adapt to changing times. That is a law of nature.

There *is* no list of what software is in GNU on the GNU site. They do link to a page on the FSF site that lists some GNU packages, but that’s not a comprehensive list. If you want to see what they provide, try looking at their FTP sites – http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/ and ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/ (since you seem for some reason not to believe that GNOME is part of GNU, look too at http://www.gnome.org/about/ , which contains the sentence “GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project”.

Whether you like the name or not, to claim “Most these contributions, the average person will never use themselves, but the coders use them and the coders give us Linux and the open source programmes that we like. Most of their programmes run from the terminal.” is just flat-out *wrong*. You seem also to make a habit of making assumptions without any facts, such as saying “You buy into the GNU philosophy and I reject it. ”

In fact, I work for a proprietary software company. I just think it incredibly rude for someone to dismiss and diminish 25 years of work, mostly by volunteers – work they are using themselves – because they think their own opinion of what that work should be called is more important than the opinion of those who do the work…

My intent is not to be rude, but everybody is conveniently avoiding the issue of the dumb name and the fascists in the GNU camp. They want to laud or applaud GNU and their work which is understandable. I get it. My intent was never to run down their efforts. I have said this repeatedly both in the article and in the comments.
There is a problem. It is obvious to many. The GNU plan is not working. GNU/Linux will never catch on. Get used to it. GNU/Linux distros such as Debian are fading. It isn’t just me who sees this. People are not buying what you have to sell (metaphorically), so you can either stop selling it (not likely), continue to watch the sales fall (inevitable) and be miserable (I think that you like it), or do something about it (highly unlikely). You are burying your head in the sand if you don’t think that there is a problem.
I am a realist. I don’t want to dump on volunteers. They believe in the ideals and are doing something about it. Most of them care about the code and let others worry about the ideals. I am not so sure about those in charge of setting the direction and the followers and adherents who take merely play follow the leader. I am a political scientist by training and can recognise a tyrant when I see one. I can also recognise his infuence on the behaviour of his followers. It is actually quite scary.
I plan on doing the following: I will actually go to the GNU website and download what they are offering and if it installs and is worth anything I will be the most surprised person of all. I will also download the latest Debian release when (if) it ever comes out and walk a mile in those shoes. Then I will post my findings.

I understand the point you’re making, but it’s moot.

There’s an important licensing difference between the two “viewpoints” with regards to the use of proprietary software. That’s the source of the different nomenclatures.


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